[ABE-L] Fwd: Fwd: ASA Connect Digest for Thursday June 18, 2020

Seg Jun 22 10:59:16 -03 2020

Olá,

Como não ganhei nem vou ganhar esse prêmio, minha opinião é irrelevante. Já
que Doris mencionou o tweet que compartilhei, segue minha opinião:

Eu acho digna a decisão da ASA, ela não tira o mérito do Fisher qto as suas
contribuições a estatística porém não se pode ignorar esse histórico
eugenista, a propósito fiquei bastante impressionado com essa forte relação
de Fisher com o Eugenismo. A relação de Pearson e Galton com o Eugenismo
eram bem óbvias. Eu tento evitar o termo modelos de regressão dando
preferência a modelos lineares por conta dessa associação com o Eugenismo.
Galton era Chair of Eugenics na University of London (hoje UCL), e após seu
falecimento Pearson assumiu a posição que passou a ser chamada de the
Galton Chair of Eugenics, e que depois virou the Galton Chair of Genetics.
Quanto ao Fisher eu não fazia a menor ideia até ver essa discussão levanta
após essa decisão da ASA de renomear o Fisher award.

Abraco,
Leo

On Sun, 21 Jun 2020, 00:36 Basilio de Braganca Pereira, <
basiliopereira em gmail.com> wrote:

> Vi o começo da discussão na lista medstat.
> Mesmo tendo feito cursos com Barnard (ficheriano e amigo de Fisher) , Cox
> (fisheriano) , Rao ( fisheriano e único Estatístico aluno de Fisher) e
> admirador da Inferência Verossimilhança e da S Sstructural de Fraser admito
> que fico em cima do muro .
> Fico admirado com a contribuição do José Carvalho , muito diferente do que
> defendia na juventude.
> Minha posição é de quem já sofreu discriminação nesta nossa terra de
> cultura escravista e elitista e sabe o que é isso.
> Acho que os jovens que vão ganhar prêmios e reconhecimentos no futuro e
> que devem se posicionar .
> Ler o que Fisher fez de bom ou talvez ruim na estatística e na genética e
> se posicionar.
> Estamos numa época estranha gente contra o aborto e a favor da pena de
> morte. Gente contra corrupção e não se manifesta contra a corrupção dos
> bancos recebendo juros do governo sobre o nosso dinheiro depositado e que
> eles não emprestaram. Nesta pandemia receberam 1 triilhao e duzentos
> bilhões para ajudar as empresas e recebem juros sobre o que não emprestaram
> que foi muito , Essa forma e que aparece a nossa dívida pública e que
> ninguém pede para auditar.
> E não tem dinheiro para ajudar na pandemia !!!!!!
> Basilio
>
> Enviado do meu iPhone
>
> Em 20 de jun de 2020, à(s) 20:02, Doris Fontes <dsfontes em gmail.com>
> escreveu:
>
> Oi, Dani,
>
> Há um thread muito interessante sobre esse assunto no twitter que conheci
> através de um retweet do Léo Bastos, da Profa Maryclare Griffin
> @mcmcgriffin (Assistant professor of statistics at UMass Amherst) (
> https://twitter.com/mcmcgriffin/status/1271940745193275393). Ela
> compartilha vários links com documentos sobre a atuação de Fisher em
> sociedades eugenistas. Ex:
> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2985289/pdf/eugenrev00297-0003.pdf
>
> Vale a pena dar uma lida.
>
> Doris
>
>
>
>
>
> <http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail> Livre
> de vírus. www.avg.com
> <http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>.
>
> <#m_6142312723982292851_m_-3735427827765927004_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>
> Em sáb., 20 de jun. de 2020 às 19:46, Dani Gamerman <dani em im.ufrj.br>
> escreveu:
>
>> Agradeço a Doris por trazer essa relevante noticia para este forum. Achei
>> interessante ler os comentários em seguida à noticia.
>> Agradeço ao Zé Carvalho por seu retorno ao grupo e pela sua avaliação da
>> questão.
>>
>> Desculpem a minha ignorância mas alguém saberia apontar o que foi que o
>> Fisher fez ou escreveu para despertar uma reação tão forte de uma
>> instituição
>> tão respeitada por nós como a ASA?
>>
>> Abraços a todos
>> Dani
>>
>>
>> Em sáb., 20 de jun. de 2020 às 18:43, Doris Fontes <dsfontes em gmail.com>
>> escreveu:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------
>>> De: José Carvalho <josef.carvalho em gmail.com>
>>> Date: sáb., 20 de jun. de 2020 às 18:16
>>> Subject: Re: [ABE-L] Fwd: ASA Connect Digest for Thursday June 18, 2020
>>> To: Doris Fontes <dsfontes em gmail.com>
>>> Cc: abe-Lista <abe-l em ime.usp.br>
>>>
>>>
>>> Dóris, boa noite.
>>>
>>> Faz um tempinho que vi essa onda crescer pela lista da ASA. Estava
>>> quieto. Mas seu email me impeliu a dar um palpite.
>>>
>>> Eu acho a ideia absurda. Se normearmos o que Fisher
>>> criou/inventou/estabeleceu para a estatística. Não há um dia em que um
>>> profissional da estatística deixe de usar alguma coisa do Fisher.
>>> Falamos de eugenia... chegado à genética. A genética quantitativa deve
>>> muito ao Fisher. A agricultura deve muito a ele. Claro, agora, com biologia
>>> molecular, isso vai ficando diferente. Mesmo assim, vejo, como exemplo, na
>>> indústria de celulose, como se faz de melhoria, com genética quantitativa,
>>> estilo "antigo". Muito disso vem do Fisher.
>>>
>>> E por falar em eugenia, há muito que praticamos eugenia em animais. Os
>>> cavalos de hoje, do orte que são, nada parecem com o originais, depois de
>>> muito mudados pelo homem. Vacas produtoras de leite também foram muito
>>> melhoradas geneticamente por cruzamentos. A lista é infinda... Isso começou
>>> muito antes de Fisher e de modelos de genética quantitativa. O sucesso
>>> dessa prática pode subir à cabeça de muita gente e, talvez, aplicar-se isso
>>> a humanos. Afinal, somos animais, iguais a qualquer mamífero, não é?
>>> Esbarramos aqui em questões éticas, que não aplicamos in toto a animais.
>>>
>>> Ainda sobre eugenia - existem algumas "doenças" sabidamente causadas por
>>> um ou outro gene. E já se sabe como mudar  a expressão desse gene. Vamos
>>> deixar de fazê-lo, para não alterar a genética de um neném? Isso não é uma
>>> forma de eugenia?
>>>
>>> Fisher escreveu sobre eugenia em 1920. Caramba!!!!
>>>
>>> Já conversei sobre isso, seriamente, com Oscar Kempthorne, nos '70 e
>>> '80. Lembro-me que ele me disse: um homem tem muitas dimensões. Talvez uma
>>> das muitas de Fisher seja criticável - hoje. E daí? Vamos jogar fora o que
>>> ele fez? Pior: vamos descrendeciar seu nome, desfilia-lo de sua produção? É
>>> um crime!
>>>
>>> Acho que temos de por um freio nessa vaga de "politicamente correto".
>>>
>>> Abraços,
>>>
>>> Zé Carvalho
>>>
>>> On Sat, Jun 20, 2020 at 3:10 PM Doris Fontes <dsfontes em gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Vocês estão acompanhando essa discussão sobre o Fisher? Parece que a
>>>> ASA resolveu mudar o nome do Fisher Award. Três nomes importantes da
>>>> estatística (Fisher, Pearson e Galton) no meio dessas discussões sobre
>>>> movimentos eugenistas. Triste realidade.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> top
>>>> <#m_6142312723982292851_m_-3735427827765927004_m_-3164677409869936270_m_7582820576311663410_m_2876922485512350150_m_636327924523925258_m_4596403200377973764_toca>
>>>> previous
>>>> <#m_6142312723982292851_m_-3735427827765927004_m_-3164677409869936270_m_7582820576311663410_m_2876922485512350150_m_636327924523925258_m_4596403200377973764_m0>
>>>> next
>>>> <#m_6142312723982292851_m_-3735427827765927004_m_-3164677409869936270_m_7582820576311663410_m_2876922485512350150_m_636327924523925258_m_4596403200377973764_m2>
>>>> 2. Re: COPSS Fisher Award
>>>> <https://community.amstat.org/communities/community-home/digestviewer/viewthread?MessageKey=93b52c50-139e-4d9f-be5c-a1dffefe7fa6&CommunityKey=6b2d607a-e31f-4f19-8357-020a8631b999&tab=digestviewer#bm93b52c50-139e-4d9f-be5c-a1dffefe7fa6>
>>>> Reply to Group Online
>>>> <https://community.amstat.org/communities/all-discussions/postreply?MessageKey=93b52c50-139e-4d9f-be5c-a1dffefe7fa6&ListKey=4061ce8b-1847-47dd-b1ae-357745003563> Reply
>>>> to Sender
>>>> <https://community.amstat.org/communities/all-discussions/postreply?MessageKey=93b52c50-139e-4d9f-be5c-a1dffefe7fa6&ListKey=4061ce8b-1847-47dd-b1ae-357745003563&SenderKey=3e823bf0-5765-453b-9402-dacc1f6570cc>
>>>> [image: Roger Hoerl]
>>>> <https://community.amstat.org/network/members/profile?UserKey=3e823bf0-5765-453b-9402-dacc1f6570cc>
>>>> Jun 18, 2020 9:43 AM
>>>> Roger Hoerl
>>>> <https://community.amstat.org/network/members/profile?UserKey=3e823bf0-5765-453b-9402-dacc1f6570cc>
>>>>
>>>> I would like to offer another perspective on this decision, and make a
>>>> request of the ASA leadership. First of all, while I deplore the concept of
>>>> eugenics, I had misgivings about this decision. My reasoning was expressed
>>>> by a previous commenter; we are essentially judging someone born in the 19
>>>> th century by 21st century ethical standards. This is a tough bar for
>>>> anyone to pass! However, a decision has now been made, and I encourage my
>>>> fellow ASA members to support it, as I do, in the interests of "moving
>>>> forward to form a more just, equitable, diverse, and inclusive society," in
>>>> the words of Ron Wasserstein.
>>>>
>>>> While supporting this decision, it should be obvious to all of us that
>>>> there will be more decisions of a similar nature to be made in the future.
>>>> As I look around the country, and even the world, there are numerous
>>>> statues and monuments being torn down, as well as buildings and awards
>>>> being renamed. As an aside, it is a bit shocking that it took this long to
>>>> tear down confederate monuments, but that is not my point today. Rather, my
>>>> point is that from my perspective, many of these decisions have been made
>>>> as "one-offs," in an isolated manner, often driven by emotion or the latest
>>>> news headlines.
>>>>
>>>> As a professional society that prides itself on objectivity, I would
>>>> think that we, the ASA, should be guided in such decisions by sound ethical
>>>> principles, which could be documented, debated, and modified over time. In
>>>> fact, we do have ethical guidelines for statistical practice, but I don't
>>>> think they answer the question of ex post facto guilt. For example, article
>>>> 11, paragraph 2 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights
>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Declaration_of_Human_Rights> provides
>>>> that "no person be held guilty of any criminal law that did not exist at
>>>> the time of offence, nor suffer any penalty heavier than what existed at
>>>> the time of offence." Of course, we are not talking about criminal law
>>>> here, but I think the ex post facto principle is still relevant.
>>>>
>>>> In short, while supporting the current decision on renaming the R.A.
>>>> Fisher Award, I am calling on ASA leadership to consider documentation of
>>>> principles to be used to guide future decisions on renaming of awards,
>>>> lectures, buildings, or statistics departments. These should be shared with
>>>> the membership for input and debate, of course, and modified over time as
>>>> necessary. I would be happy to help in any way that I could.
>>>>
>>>> Sincerely, Roger
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>> Roger W. Hoerl
>>>> Manager, Applied Statistics Lab
>>>> GE Global Research
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>   *Reply to Group Online
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>>>> -------------------------------------------
>>>> Original Message:
>>>> Sent: 06-15-2020 08:03
>>>> From: Ronald Wasserstein
>>>> Subject: COPSS Fisher Award
>>>>
>>>> Dear Colleagues,
>>>> The leadership of the ASA has recommended to the awarding organization
>>>> – COPSS – that the R.A. Fisher Award and Lectureship be retired and that
>>>> this year's award be retitled. There is no principle of greater value than
>>>> the principle of strengthening the statistical community by moving forward
>>>> to form a more just, equitable, diverse, and inclusive society. We are
>>>> committed to future diversity and inclusion across the generations in the
>>>> statistics profession.
>>>>
>>>> We celebrate and commend the outstanding accomplishments of past award
>>>> recipients and especially this year's recipient, Kathryn Roeder. She richly
>>>> deserves to be and will be appropriately honored at JSM, and we look
>>>> forward to her lecture.
>>>>
>>>> Ron
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>> Ron Wasserstein
>>>> Executive Director
>>>> The American Statistical Association
>>>> Promoting the Practice and Profession of Statistics
>>>> 732 N. Washington St.
>>>> Alexandria, VA 22314
>>>> 703-684-1221 x1860
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> top
>>>> <#m_6142312723982292851_m_-3735427827765927004_m_-3164677409869936270_m_7582820576311663410_m_2876922485512350150_m_636327924523925258_m_4596403200377973764_toca>
>>>> previous
>>>> <#m_6142312723982292851_m_-3735427827765927004_m_-3164677409869936270_m_7582820576311663410_m_2876922485512350150_m_636327924523925258_m_4596403200377973764_m1>
>>>>
>>>> 3. Re: COPSS Fisher Award
>>>> <https://community.amstat.org/communities/community-home/digestviewer/viewthread?MessageKey=e746010a-f16a-4a06-9beb-415465c0c08a&CommunityKey=6b2d607a-e31f-4f19-8357-020a8631b999&tab=digestviewer#bme746010a-f16a-4a06-9beb-415465c0c08a>
>>>> Reply to Group Online
>>>> <https://community.amstat.org/communities/all-discussions/postreply?MessageKey=e746010a-f16a-4a06-9beb-415465c0c08a&ListKey=4061ce8b-1847-47dd-b1ae-357745003563> Reply
>>>> to Sender
>>>> <https://community.amstat.org/communities/all-discussions/postreply?MessageKey=e746010a-f16a-4a06-9beb-415465c0c08a&ListKey=4061ce8b-1847-47dd-b1ae-357745003563&SenderKey=111c0aec-a37b-4d88-9345-ce1969d58ff6>
>>>> [image: J. Rao]
>>>> <https://community.amstat.org/network/members/profile?UserKey=111c0aec-a37b-4d88-9345-ce1969d58ff6>
>>>> Jun 18, 2020 9:50 AM
>>>> J. Rao
>>>> <https://community.amstat.org/network/members/profile?UserKey=111c0aec-a37b-4d88-9345-ce1969d58ff6>
>>>> C. R. Rao was Fisher's Ph. D. student. He will turn 100 this September.
>>>> It is a good idea to ask him about Fisher.
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>> J. Rao
>>>> Carleton University
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>   *Reply to Group Online
>>>> <https://community.amstat.org/communities/all-discussions/postreply?MessageKey=e746010a-f16a-4a06-9beb-415465c0c08a&ListKey=4061ce8b-1847-47dd-b1ae-357745003563>*
>>>>   *Reply to Sender
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>>>>   *View Thread
>>>> <https://community.amstat.org/communities/community-home/digestviewer/viewthread?MessageKey=e746010a-f16a-4a06-9beb-415465c0c08a&CommunityKey=6b2d607a-e31f-4f19-8357-020a8631b999&tab=digestviewer#bme746010a-f16a-4a06-9beb-415465c0c08a>*
>>>>   *Recommend
>>>> <https://community.amstat.org/communities/community-home/digestviewer/viewthread?MessageKey=e746010a-f16a-4a06-9beb-415465c0c08a&CommunityKey=6b2d607a-e31f-4f19-8357-020a8631b999&tab=digestviewer&cmd=rate&cmdarg=add#bme746010a-f16a-4a06-9beb-415465c0c08a>*
>>>>   *Forward
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>>>> -------------------------------------------
>>>> Original Message:
>>>> Sent: 06-17-2020 23:12
>>>> From: Kenneth Burnham
>>>> Subject: COPSS Fisher Award
>>>>
>>>> Before such a change ask C.R. Rao and D.R. Cox about Fisher and racism.
>>>> They should have direct knowledge on the matter.
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>> Kenneth Burnham
>>>> Colorado State University
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You are subscribed to "ASA Connect" as dsfontes em gmail.com. To change
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>>>> .
>>>>
>>>>
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