[ABE-L] Fwd: Fwd: ASA Connect Digest for Thursday June 18, 2020

Sáb Jun 20 19:46:35 -03 2020

Agradeço a Doris por trazer essa relevante noticia para este forum. Achei
interessante ler os comentários em seguida à noticia.
Agradeço ao Zé Carvalho por seu retorno ao grupo e pela sua avaliação da
questão.

Desculpem a minha ignorância mas alguém saberia apontar o que foi que o
Fisher fez ou escreveu para despertar uma reação tão forte de uma
instituição
tão respeitada por nós como a ASA?

Abraços a todos
Dani

Em sáb., 20 de jun. de 2020 às 18:43, Doris Fontes <dsfontes em gmail.com>
escreveu:

>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ---------
> De: José Carvalho <josef.carvalho em gmail.com>
> Date: sáb., 20 de jun. de 2020 às 18:16
> Subject: Re: [ABE-L] Fwd: ASA Connect Digest for Thursday June 18, 2020
> To: Doris Fontes <dsfontes em gmail.com>
> Cc: abe-Lista <abe-l em ime.usp.br>
>
>
> Dóris, boa noite.
>
> Faz um tempinho que vi essa onda crescer pela lista da ASA. Estava quieto.
> Mas seu email me impeliu a dar um palpite.
>
> Eu acho a ideia absurda. Se normearmos o que Fisher
> criou/inventou/estabeleceu para a estatística. Não há um dia em que um
> profissional da estatística deixe de usar alguma coisa do Fisher.
> Falamos de eugenia... chegado à genética. A genética quantitativa deve
> muito ao Fisher. A agricultura deve muito a ele. Claro, agora, com biologia
> molecular, isso vai ficando diferente. Mesmo assim, vejo, como exemplo, na
> indústria de celulose, como se faz de melhoria, com genética quantitativa,
> estilo "antigo". Muito disso vem do Fisher.
>
> E por falar em eugenia, há muito que praticamos eugenia em animais. Os
> cavalos de hoje, do orte que são, nada parecem com o originais, depois de
> muito mudados pelo homem. Vacas produtoras de leite também foram muito
> melhoradas geneticamente por cruzamentos. A lista é infinda... Isso começou
> muito antes de Fisher e de modelos de genética quantitativa. O sucesso
> dessa prática pode subir à cabeça de muita gente e, talvez, aplicar-se isso
> a humanos. Afinal, somos animais, iguais a qualquer mamífero, não é?
> Esbarramos aqui em questões éticas, que não aplicamos in toto a animais.
>
> Ainda sobre eugenia - existem algumas "doenças" sabidamente causadas por
> um ou outro gene. E já se sabe como mudar  a expressão desse gene. Vamos
> deixar de fazê-lo, para não alterar a genética de um neném? Isso não é uma
> forma de eugenia?
>
> Fisher escreveu sobre eugenia em 1920. Caramba!!!!
>
> Já conversei sobre isso, seriamente, com Oscar Kempthorne, nos '70 e '80.
> Lembro-me que ele me disse: um homem tem muitas dimensões. Talvez uma das
> muitas de Fisher seja criticável - hoje. E daí? Vamos jogar fora o que ele
> fez? Pior: vamos descrendeciar seu nome, desfilia-lo de sua produção? É um
> crime!
>
> Acho que temos de por um freio nessa vaga de "politicamente correto".
>
> Abraços,
>
> Zé Carvalho
>
> On Sat, Jun 20, 2020 at 3:10 PM Doris Fontes <dsfontes em gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Vocês estão acompanhando essa discussão sobre o Fisher? Parece que a ASA
>> resolveu mudar o nome do Fisher Award. Três nomes importantes da
>> estatística (Fisher, Pearson e Galton) no meio dessas discussões sobre
>> movimentos eugenistas. Triste realidade.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> top
>> <#m_7582820576311663410_m_2876922485512350150_m_636327924523925258_m_4596403200377973764_toca>
>> previous
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>> next
>> <#m_7582820576311663410_m_2876922485512350150_m_636327924523925258_m_4596403200377973764_m2>
>> 2. Re: COPSS Fisher Award
>> <https://community.amstat.org/communities/community-home/digestviewer/viewthread?MessageKey=93b52c50-139e-4d9f-be5c-a1dffefe7fa6&CommunityKey=6b2d607a-e31f-4f19-8357-020a8631b999&tab=digestviewer#bm93b52c50-139e-4d9f-be5c-a1dffefe7fa6>
>> Reply to Group Online
>> <https://community.amstat.org/communities/all-discussions/postreply?MessageKey=93b52c50-139e-4d9f-be5c-a1dffefe7fa6&ListKey=4061ce8b-1847-47dd-b1ae-357745003563> Reply
>> to Sender
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>> [image: Roger Hoerl]
>> <https://community.amstat.org/network/members/profile?UserKey=3e823bf0-5765-453b-9402-dacc1f6570cc>
>> Jun 18, 2020 9:43 AM
>> Roger Hoerl
>> <https://community.amstat.org/network/members/profile?UserKey=3e823bf0-5765-453b-9402-dacc1f6570cc>
>>
>> I would like to offer another perspective on this decision, and make a
>> request of the ASA leadership. First of all, while I deplore the concept of
>> eugenics, I had misgivings about this decision. My reasoning was expressed
>> by a previous commenter; we are essentially judging someone born in the 19
>> th century by 21st century ethical standards. This is a tough bar for
>> anyone to pass! However, a decision has now been made, and I encourage my
>> fellow ASA members to support it, as I do, in the interests of "moving
>> forward to form a more just, equitable, diverse, and inclusive society," in
>> the words of Ron Wasserstein.
>>
>> While supporting this decision, it should be obvious to all of us that
>> there will be more decisions of a similar nature to be made in the future.
>> As I look around the country, and even the world, there are numerous
>> statues and monuments being torn down, as well as buildings and awards
>> being renamed. As an aside, it is a bit shocking that it took this long to
>> tear down confederate monuments, but that is not my point today. Rather, my
>> point is that from my perspective, many of these decisions have been made
>> as "one-offs," in an isolated manner, often driven by emotion or the latest
>> news headlines.
>>
>> As a professional society that prides itself on objectivity, I would
>> think that we, the ASA, should be guided in such decisions by sound ethical
>> principles, which could be documented, debated, and modified over time. In
>> fact, we do have ethical guidelines for statistical practice, but I don't
>> think they answer the question of ex post facto guilt. For example, article
>> 11, paragraph 2 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Declaration_of_Human_Rights> provides
>> that "no person be held guilty of any criminal law that did not exist at
>> the time of offence, nor suffer any penalty heavier than what existed at
>> the time of offence." Of course, we are not talking about criminal law
>> here, but I think the ex post facto principle is still relevant.
>>
>> In short, while supporting the current decision on renaming the R.A.
>> Fisher Award, I am calling on ASA leadership to consider documentation of
>> principles to be used to guide future decisions on renaming of awards,
>> lectures, buildings, or statistics departments. These should be shared with
>> the membership for input and debate, of course, and modified over time as
>> necessary. I would be happy to help in any way that I could.
>>
>> Sincerely, Roger
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> Roger W. Hoerl
>> Manager, Applied Statistics Lab
>> GE Global Research
>> ------------------------------
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>> -------------------------------------------
>> Original Message:
>> Sent: 06-15-2020 08:03
>> From: Ronald Wasserstein
>> Subject: COPSS Fisher Award
>>
>> Dear Colleagues,
>> The leadership of the ASA has recommended to the awarding organization –
>> COPSS – that the R.A. Fisher Award and Lectureship be retired and that this
>> year's award be retitled. There is no principle of greater value than the
>> principle of strengthening the statistical community by moving forward to
>> form a more just, equitable, diverse, and inclusive society. We are
>> committed to future diversity and inclusion across the generations in the
>> statistics profession.
>>
>> We celebrate and commend the outstanding accomplishments of past award
>> recipients and especially this year's recipient, Kathryn Roeder. She richly
>> deserves to be and will be appropriately honored at JSM, and we look
>> forward to her lecture.
>>
>> Ron
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> Ron Wasserstein
>> Executive Director
>> The American Statistical Association
>> Promoting the Practice and Profession of Statistics
>> 732 N. Washington St.
>> Alexandria, VA 22314
>> 703-684-1221 x1860
>> ------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> top
>> <#m_7582820576311663410_m_2876922485512350150_m_636327924523925258_m_4596403200377973764_toca>
>> previous
>> <#m_7582820576311663410_m_2876922485512350150_m_636327924523925258_m_4596403200377973764_m1>
>>
>> 3. Re: COPSS Fisher Award
>> <https://community.amstat.org/communities/community-home/digestviewer/viewthread?MessageKey=e746010a-f16a-4a06-9beb-415465c0c08a&CommunityKey=6b2d607a-e31f-4f19-8357-020a8631b999&tab=digestviewer#bme746010a-f16a-4a06-9beb-415465c0c08a>
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>> [image: J. Rao]
>> <https://community.amstat.org/network/members/profile?UserKey=111c0aec-a37b-4d88-9345-ce1969d58ff6>
>> Jun 18, 2020 9:50 AM
>> J. Rao
>> <https://community.amstat.org/network/members/profile?UserKey=111c0aec-a37b-4d88-9345-ce1969d58ff6>
>> C. R. Rao was Fisher's Ph. D. student. He will turn 100 this September.
>> It is a good idea to ask him about Fisher.
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> J. Rao
>> Carleton University
>> ------------------------------
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>> -------------------------------------------
>> Original Message:
>> Sent: 06-17-2020 23:12
>> From: Kenneth Burnham
>> Subject: COPSS Fisher Award
>>
>> Before such a change ask C.R. Rao and D.R. Cox about Fisher and racism.
>> They should have direct knowledge on the matter.
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> Kenneth Burnham
>> Colorado State University
>>
>>
>>
>>
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