[ABE-L] Fwd: Fwd: ASA Connect Digest for Thursday June 18, 2020

Sáb Jun 20 20:02:37 -03 2020

Oi, Dani,

Há um thread muito interessante sobre esse assunto no twitter que conheci
através de um retweet do Léo Bastos, da Profa Maryclare Griffin
@mcmcgriffin (Assistant professor of statistics at UMass Amherst) (
https://twitter.com/mcmcgriffin/status/1271940745193275393). Ela
compartilha vários links com documentos sobre a atuação de Fisher em
sociedades eugenistas. Ex:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2985289/pdf/eugenrev00297-0003.pdf

Vale a pena dar uma lida.

Doris

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Em sáb., 20 de jun. de 2020 às 19:46, Dani Gamerman <dani em im.ufrj.br>
escreveu:

> Agradeço a Doris por trazer essa relevante noticia para este forum. Achei
> interessante ler os comentários em seguida à noticia.
> Agradeço ao Zé Carvalho por seu retorno ao grupo e pela sua avaliação da
> questão.
>
> Desculpem a minha ignorância mas alguém saberia apontar o que foi que o
> Fisher fez ou escreveu para despertar uma reação tão forte de uma
> instituição
> tão respeitada por nós como a ASA?
>
> Abraços a todos
> Dani
>
>
> Em sáb., 20 de jun. de 2020 às 18:43, Doris Fontes <dsfontes em gmail.com>
> escreveu:
>
>>
>>
>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------
>> De: José Carvalho <josef.carvalho em gmail.com>
>> Date: sáb., 20 de jun. de 2020 às 18:16
>> Subject: Re: [ABE-L] Fwd: ASA Connect Digest for Thursday June 18, 2020
>> To: Doris Fontes <dsfontes em gmail.com>
>> Cc: abe-Lista <abe-l em ime.usp.br>
>>
>>
>> Dóris, boa noite.
>>
>> Faz um tempinho que vi essa onda crescer pela lista da ASA. Estava
>> quieto. Mas seu email me impeliu a dar um palpite.
>>
>> Eu acho a ideia absurda. Se normearmos o que Fisher
>> criou/inventou/estabeleceu para a estatística. Não há um dia em que um
>> profissional da estatística deixe de usar alguma coisa do Fisher.
>> Falamos de eugenia... chegado à genética. A genética quantitativa deve
>> muito ao Fisher. A agricultura deve muito a ele. Claro, agora, com biologia
>> molecular, isso vai ficando diferente. Mesmo assim, vejo, como exemplo, na
>> indústria de celulose, como se faz de melhoria, com genética quantitativa,
>> estilo "antigo". Muito disso vem do Fisher.
>>
>> E por falar em eugenia, há muito que praticamos eugenia em animais. Os
>> cavalos de hoje, do orte que são, nada parecem com o originais, depois de
>> muito mudados pelo homem. Vacas produtoras de leite também foram muito
>> melhoradas geneticamente por cruzamentos. A lista é infinda... Isso começou
>> muito antes de Fisher e de modelos de genética quantitativa. O sucesso
>> dessa prática pode subir à cabeça de muita gente e, talvez, aplicar-se isso
>> a humanos. Afinal, somos animais, iguais a qualquer mamífero, não é?
>> Esbarramos aqui em questões éticas, que não aplicamos in toto a animais.
>>
>> Ainda sobre eugenia - existem algumas "doenças" sabidamente causadas por
>> um ou outro gene. E já se sabe como mudar  a expressão desse gene. Vamos
>> deixar de fazê-lo, para não alterar a genética de um neném? Isso não é uma
>> forma de eugenia?
>>
>> Fisher escreveu sobre eugenia em 1920. Caramba!!!!
>>
>> Já conversei sobre isso, seriamente, com Oscar Kempthorne, nos '70 e '80.
>> Lembro-me que ele me disse: um homem tem muitas dimensões. Talvez uma das
>> muitas de Fisher seja criticável - hoje. E daí? Vamos jogar fora o que ele
>> fez? Pior: vamos descrendeciar seu nome, desfilia-lo de sua produção? É um
>> crime!
>>
>> Acho que temos de por um freio nessa vaga de "politicamente correto".
>>
>> Abraços,
>>
>> Zé Carvalho
>>
>> On Sat, Jun 20, 2020 at 3:10 PM Doris Fontes <dsfontes em gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Vocês estão acompanhando essa discussão sobre o Fisher? Parece que a ASA
>>> resolveu mudar o nome do Fisher Award. Três nomes importantes da
>>> estatística (Fisher, Pearson e Galton) no meio dessas discussões sobre
>>> movimentos eugenistas. Triste realidade.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> top
>>> <#m_-3164677409869936270_m_7582820576311663410_m_2876922485512350150_m_636327924523925258_m_4596403200377973764_toca>
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>>> 2. Re: COPSS Fisher Award
>>> <https://community.amstat.org/communities/community-home/digestviewer/viewthread?MessageKey=93b52c50-139e-4d9f-be5c-a1dffefe7fa6&CommunityKey=6b2d607a-e31f-4f19-8357-020a8631b999&tab=digestviewer#bm93b52c50-139e-4d9f-be5c-a1dffefe7fa6>
>>> Reply to Group Online
>>> <https://community.amstat.org/communities/all-discussions/postreply?MessageKey=93b52c50-139e-4d9f-be5c-a1dffefe7fa6&ListKey=4061ce8b-1847-47dd-b1ae-357745003563> Reply
>>> to Sender
>>> <https://community.amstat.org/communities/all-discussions/postreply?MessageKey=93b52c50-139e-4d9f-be5c-a1dffefe7fa6&ListKey=4061ce8b-1847-47dd-b1ae-357745003563&SenderKey=3e823bf0-5765-453b-9402-dacc1f6570cc>
>>> [image: Roger Hoerl]
>>> <https://community.amstat.org/network/members/profile?UserKey=3e823bf0-5765-453b-9402-dacc1f6570cc>
>>> Jun 18, 2020 9:43 AM
>>> Roger Hoerl
>>> <https://community.amstat.org/network/members/profile?UserKey=3e823bf0-5765-453b-9402-dacc1f6570cc>
>>>
>>> I would like to offer another perspective on this decision, and make a
>>> request of the ASA leadership. First of all, while I deplore the concept of
>>> eugenics, I had misgivings about this decision. My reasoning was expressed
>>> by a previous commenter; we are essentially judging someone born in the 19
>>> th century by 21st century ethical standards. This is a tough bar for
>>> anyone to pass! However, a decision has now been made, and I encourage my
>>> fellow ASA members to support it, as I do, in the interests of "moving
>>> forward to form a more just, equitable, diverse, and inclusive society," in
>>> the words of Ron Wasserstein.
>>>
>>> While supporting this decision, it should be obvious to all of us that
>>> there will be more decisions of a similar nature to be made in the future.
>>> As I look around the country, and even the world, there are numerous
>>> statues and monuments being torn down, as well as buildings and awards
>>> being renamed. As an aside, it is a bit shocking that it took this long to
>>> tear down confederate monuments, but that is not my point today. Rather, my
>>> point is that from my perspective, many of these decisions have been made
>>> as "one-offs," in an isolated manner, often driven by emotion or the latest
>>> news headlines.
>>>
>>> As a professional society that prides itself on objectivity, I would
>>> think that we, the ASA, should be guided in such decisions by sound ethical
>>> principles, which could be documented, debated, and modified over time. In
>>> fact, we do have ethical guidelines for statistical practice, but I don't
>>> think they answer the question of ex post facto guilt. For example, article
>>> 11, paragraph 2 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights
>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Declaration_of_Human_Rights> provides
>>> that "no person be held guilty of any criminal law that did not exist at
>>> the time of offence, nor suffer any penalty heavier than what existed at
>>> the time of offence." Of course, we are not talking about criminal law
>>> here, but I think the ex post facto principle is still relevant.
>>>
>>> In short, while supporting the current decision on renaming the R.A.
>>> Fisher Award, I am calling on ASA leadership to consider documentation of
>>> principles to be used to guide future decisions on renaming of awards,
>>> lectures, buildings, or statistics departments. These should be shared with
>>> the membership for input and debate, of course, and modified over time as
>>> necessary. I would be happy to help in any way that I could.
>>>
>>> Sincerely, Roger
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>> Roger W. Hoerl
>>> Manager, Applied Statistics Lab
>>> GE Global Research
>>> ------------------------------
>>>   *Reply to Group Online
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>>> -------------------------------------------
>>> Original Message:
>>> Sent: 06-15-2020 08:03
>>> From: Ronald Wasserstein
>>> Subject: COPSS Fisher Award
>>>
>>> Dear Colleagues,
>>> The leadership of the ASA has recommended to the awarding organization –
>>> COPSS – that the R.A. Fisher Award and Lectureship be retired and that this
>>> year's award be retitled. There is no principle of greater value than the
>>> principle of strengthening the statistical community by moving forward to
>>> form a more just, equitable, diverse, and inclusive society. We are
>>> committed to future diversity and inclusion across the generations in the
>>> statistics profession.
>>>
>>> We celebrate and commend the outstanding accomplishments of past award
>>> recipients and especially this year's recipient, Kathryn Roeder. She richly
>>> deserves to be and will be appropriately honored at JSM, and we look
>>> forward to her lecture.
>>>
>>> Ron
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>> Ron Wasserstein
>>> Executive Director
>>> The American Statistical Association
>>> Promoting the Practice and Profession of Statistics
>>> 732 N. Washington St.
>>> Alexandria, VA 22314
>>> 703-684-1221 x1860
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> top
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>>>
>>> 3. Re: COPSS Fisher Award
>>> <https://community.amstat.org/communities/community-home/digestviewer/viewthread?MessageKey=e746010a-f16a-4a06-9beb-415465c0c08a&CommunityKey=6b2d607a-e31f-4f19-8357-020a8631b999&tab=digestviewer#bme746010a-f16a-4a06-9beb-415465c0c08a>
>>> Reply to Group Online
>>> <https://community.amstat.org/communities/all-discussions/postreply?MessageKey=e746010a-f16a-4a06-9beb-415465c0c08a&ListKey=4061ce8b-1847-47dd-b1ae-357745003563> Reply
>>> to Sender
>>> <https://community.amstat.org/communities/all-discussions/postreply?MessageKey=e746010a-f16a-4a06-9beb-415465c0c08a&ListKey=4061ce8b-1847-47dd-b1ae-357745003563&SenderKey=111c0aec-a37b-4d88-9345-ce1969d58ff6>
>>> [image: J. Rao]
>>> <https://community.amstat.org/network/members/profile?UserKey=111c0aec-a37b-4d88-9345-ce1969d58ff6>
>>> Jun 18, 2020 9:50 AM
>>> J. Rao
>>> <https://community.amstat.org/network/members/profile?UserKey=111c0aec-a37b-4d88-9345-ce1969d58ff6>
>>> C. R. Rao was Fisher's Ph. D. student. He will turn 100 this September.
>>> It is a good idea to ask him about Fisher.
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>> J. Rao
>>> Carleton University
>>> ------------------------------
>>>   *Reply to Group Online
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>>> -------------------------------------------
>>> Original Message:
>>> Sent: 06-17-2020 23:12
>>> From: Kenneth Burnham
>>> Subject: COPSS Fisher Award
>>>
>>> Before such a change ask C.R. Rao and D.R. Cox about Fisher and racism.
>>> They should have direct knowledge on the matter.
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>> Kenneth Burnham
>>> Colorado State University
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>> .
>>>
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